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Commons APP community conversation (later) - Shared screen with speaker view
Michael Della Bitta, DPLA (he/him)
32:53
Hello from Providence, RI, US
Mehrdad (he/him)
32:56
Greetings from a cold, sunny Toronto
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
32:57
Hi from Sao Paulo, Brazil!
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
33:01
Hola a todos, from Santiago de Chile!
Andy Mabbett
33:19
HI folks ;-)
Albin Larsson
33:23
Hi from Nyköping, Sweden!
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
33:50
Hi Virginia! So good to see you here 🙂
DJ
33:53
hi everyone !
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
33:55
This meeting follows our Friendly Space Policy: https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
Virginia Poundstone
34:17
Hi Patricia!!
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
34:22
Notes will be here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
34:26
Angie, Mau, qué bien verles aquí 🙂
Mehrdad (he/him)
34:26
A media marvel
Ryan / Rhododendrites
34:30
the world's largest free media resources and Wikipedia's image repository!
Mehrdad (he/him)
34:35
A treasure trove
Sandra Fauconnier
34:39
The place where all the images of Wikipedia are stored, but many more than that too. 80 million!
Michael Peel
34:40
The media repository behind Wikipedia
Tore Danielsson
34:43
a database with free media
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
34:46
Is like a big archive
Albin Larsson
34:47
Wikimedia Commons is a multimedia repository enabeling free access to the sum of all human knowledge.
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
35:07
Is where we keep wikipedia’s images hahaha
Angie Cervellera
35:09
A place for mutlimedia files with no copyright restrictions
Gnangarra
35:21
an adventure
James
35:34
A huge collection of images and other media, that almost nobody knows about
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
36:22
“How would you describe Commons to someone who has never used it?” - Please, continue to type your answers in the chat!
Rachel Helps
36:38
freely licensed is a type of copyright, it is different from no copyright
Dagbani Wikimedians User Group
37:01
commons is the media repositories of the Wikimedia platforms
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
37:13
For those who just joined, notes are here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app
DJ
37:18
a media repository for Wikipedia that could be so much more
Mauricio Genta
37:37
the archive and library behind Wikipedia
Michael Peel
37:51
the etherpad has the minutes from the previous meeting at the moment? Can see someone's just added themselves as an attendee of the last meeting.
Yann Forget
38:01
A huge collection of free licensed images, videos, sounds, and many other types of media.
Fiona Romeo
38:48
The minutes are actually here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Fiona Romeo
39:12
Note the addition of -2 for this meeting
Andrew Lih
40:26
Uh oh Fiona we have a real problem then - there's more activity on the "non -2" version
Yann Forget
40:57
I couldn't be in the previous meeting... :(
Fiona Romeo
41:41
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
45:49
The Wikimedia Foundation annual plan: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2022-2023/draft
Fiona Romeo
49:30
Here it is: https://easyretro.io/publicboard/ybPhZSBgxPRgNWWBuHd3tW2w3s52/4eff8d2c-82f6-4f09-8f77-e614d2580cf7
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
49:42
https://easyretro.io/publicboard/ybPhZSBgxPRgNWWBuHd3tW2w3s52/4eff8d2c-82f6-4f09-8f77-e614d2580cf7
Yann Forget
51:17
I read the script from the previous meeting. I appreciate the comments about the difficulties for newbies to contribute to Commons. The backlog of copyvios, media needed categories and review, is huge, and Commons really need more admins.
James
52:06
The big thing that seemed to be missing from the notes of the first meeting & now from the Retro board was "technical debt" -- reliance on software that in some cases is way overdue for maintenance/update, and in others depends on volunteers who have either gone away or now have too many other calls on their time
Andrew Lih
52:47
Yann - that could help (more admins) but also perhaps some more guided/curated ways for people to contribute that generate higher quality contributions. Need more work here.
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
52:49
Please, feel free to add thumbs up to topics you like on the retro board.
James
53:04
IMO this is issue zero to solve -- right at the top of the list before everything else; but we don't seem to even have a column for it on the Retro board, and it didn't even get a mention in meeting one.
Gnangarra
53:21
that technical debt was discussed
Andrew Lih
53:40
James - technical debt is a big one. Also, metrics and measuring impact
Lisa McCabe
53:44
we will give it another minute or two - thank you everyone for adding to the board!
Gnangarra
53:51
as was consolidating tools
Andrew Lih
54:22
Technical debt and not identifying key tools that require prioritized support and development (ie. Pattypan, Quickstatements, etc)
Yann Forget
54:31
Andrew: yes, taking the larger issue, Commons need more people doing review, checking new files, helping newbies, etc.
Andrew Lih
55:28
Yann - Yeah tools like ISA, WikiShootMe, PictureThis, etc. that provide more "guard rails" for contribution are helpful, so that you avoid major problems from the start
Gnangarra
55:59
commons us till prioritised to still photography
Fiona Romeo
56:14
Yes @Yann, I hope we can also have a discussion about the needs of admins. Are there ways that their work could be made easier?
Andrew Lih
56:15
Just this week, someone erroneously changed Property:P180 in Wikidata, possibly because they were confused by the SDC interface. Gah!
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
56:43
For those who wish to keep adding to the retro board: https://easyretro.io/publicboard/ybPhZSBgxPRgNWWBuHd3tW2w3s52/4eff8d2c-82f6-4f09-8f77-e614d2580cf7
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
57:08
For those who joined later, this is the etherpad/notes: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Daniel Kinzler
57:13
Hey Frank, good to see you :)
Andy Mabbett
57:47
Can the items on the retro board (ditto for previous session) be pasted somewhere on-wiki, please?
Andrew Lih
58:08
@Andy - that would be welcome. From this session and last one too
Lisa McCabe
58:10
Hi Andy we can add to the Meta page - good shout!
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:00:12
"terra incognita" = "unknown land"
Francesc Fort
01:00:18
slow
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:00:23
(just to be sure everyone get it) :)
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:01:05
there's definitely a lot more "editing is fun!" messaging than "uploading is fun!"
Yann Forget
01:01:50
Fiona: a lot of things can be done. Some issues are complex, others are easy.
Gnangarra
01:01:51
commons are more than photographers
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:02:03
Slow please
Andrew Lih
01:02:30
I think the primary tension is that with Wikipedia, instead of copy/pasting text (a no-no) you can take the facts and paraphrase and write content about anything to avoid copyright violation. Not so with Commons - it's yes/no in terms of licensing, which means we need to be incredibly "unwelcoming" to the average person.
Sandra Fauconnier
01:03:00
I agree with gnangarra. We probably have a lot of the public domain films and music too, but undiscoverable. All the GLAM files. All the scientific images… and more and more
Andrew Lih
01:03:15
And the sad fact is almost every other "photo sharing site" is not being strict about copyright, which breeds habits that are very different than on Commons.
Sandra Fauconnier
01:03:32
Digital photographs are a big part, but not the only thing we need to cater to
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:03:34
photographers (and anyone who appreciates photography/media) show up on commons, might share their media, and then see that there's not much else to do (at least from a new user perspective) other than... categorize?
Daniel Kinzler
01:03:36
I'll say it: just kill wikitext on commons. It should not be needed. Everything we use wikitext for is a missing feature.
Andrew Lih
01:04:24
@Daniel I agree with you in this aspect - the front page of Commons does not scream "We are a visual community!" as there is much more text than anything else 🙂
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:04:29
One of the ideas of Commons is to be useful! Right?
Andrew Lih
01:04:43
@Patricia - For some folks 🙂
Ailura
01:05:36
Getting likes on Insta is not enjoyable if you don't get any
Margeigh Novotny
01:05:40
LOVE this vision statement Frank!
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:05:42
As WM facilitators at least, we encorauge people to use Commons. But as it works now, is very hard
Mariana Fossatti - VisibleWikiWomen
01:05:48
+1000 to have more tools for expresing appreciation! even in "wiki loves..." and other campaigns, we don't have an easy way to communicate with participants and just say "thank you"
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:06:09
For those speaking, please, remember to speak slowly for interpretation.
Jane Darnell
01:06:24
I hear you
Michael Peel
01:06:33
There are other ways of showing appreciation though ... personally I like seeing whenever takes a minute to improve the categorisation of my photos, it's a bit less direct though.
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:06:44
Thank you Frank, that was a super useful presentation
Michael Peel
01:06:55
(but it means 'someone found this photo useful enough to improve its metadata a bit’)
Andrew Lih
01:06:58
@Mariana - Yes, we have probably invested 5x more resources into tools to protect, punish, and restrict, than to thank 🙂
Sandra Fauconnier
01:07:10
Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10svd-6f3Q4luG_RRHRp5sLGYMHusW_4mD_8YGfjHdvM/edit#slide=id.phttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OpenRefineMonthly brief reports of the OpenRefine WMF Project Grant: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Project/CS%26S/Structured_Data_on_Wikimedia_Commons_functionalities_in_OpenRefine/Timeline#Monthly_updatesMidpoint report: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Project/CS%26S/Structured_Data_on_Wikimedia_Commons_functionalities_in_OpenRefine/Midpoint
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:07:13
slow please
Virginia Poundstone
01:07:24
Thank you, Frank!
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:07:54
Thank you, Frank! That was a great presentation indeed.
Andrew Lih
01:08:02
For the record, I appreciate greatly all the work Mike Peel has done to add Wikidata-driven templates to Commons categories!
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:08:06
getting/giving that appreciation is one of the nice things about the Featured Pictures process, but only a small % of photos are going to make sense to send there. It would be great to have mechanisms to show appreciation for everyone else (including people who find/upload existing free content)
Andrew Lih
01:08:21
+1 Ryan
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:08:32
+1 Andrew: Mike's work is so important!
Frank Schulenburg
01:08:34
+1 Ryan
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:09:40
slow please
Michael Peel
01:10:50
Thanks Andrew and Giovanna. 🙂
James
01:11:02
@Daniel Kinzler : no more wikitext might be an ambition, but wikitext is easy and flexible -- risk is that alternatives may be more off-putting for contributors; + difficult for existing tools and power users + only have patchy coverage
Rachel Helps
01:11:10
Sandra it looks like you are sharing your desktop instead of your slide program
Angie Cervellera
01:11:12
Can you zoom in the slides?
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:12:02
Sandra's slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10svd-6f3Q4luG_RRHRp5sLGYMHusW_4mD_8YGfjHdvM/edit#slide=id.p
Virginia Poundstone
01:12:14
Thank you, Sandra!
Angie Cervellera
01:12:20
Obrigada Gio!
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:12:22
For those who couldn't see properly ^^
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:12:29
@Daniel what is the problem with wikitext on commons? I think I missed that part.
Carol Dunn
01:12:43
I love this comment!
Mariana Fossatti - VisibleWikiWomen
01:12:54
thank you Sandra! Open Refine for Commons looks powerful
Sandra Fauconnier
01:13:02
Oops, apologies about this. I had not notices I shared my entire desktop.
Fiona Romeo
01:13:28
Downloads would give an insight into images that are being used elsewhere, e.g. in teachers’ lessons
Yann Forget
01:13:57
Jennie Choi: There is a tool showing where and how many times your files are used.
Jane Darnell
01:14:15
Jennie I use your images a lot more than any metadata can say
Michael Peel
01:14:17
Adding a simple message to the file page saying 'if you use this please contact me to let me know!’ works quite well, I get a few emails a month by people using my photos just due to that message.
Andrew Lih
01:14:32
@Yann - Yes, we know about Baglama, GLAMorgan and others, but it would be good to get more details
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:14:39
Yes, Glamorous and Glamorgan do that, but It's just those used on wiki projects, rather than tracking downloading which might have ways to flag off-wiki use.
Angie Cervellera
01:14:42
It would be great to know how images are being used indeed...
Yann Forget
01:14:44
https://tools.wmflabs.org/glamtools/glamorous.php
Rachel Helps
01:14:49
I've found similar stats with images that I've uploaded--most of the time our most successful images are ones we ourselves add to Wikipedia pages
Isaac Olatunde
01:15:09
https://fist.toolforge.org/wd4wp/#/
DerHexer/Martin
01:15:12
I've added my thoughts on further metrics (like counting Commons category links on Wikipedia)
Tore Danielsson
01:15:16
Can you measure how many downloading there is for a file from Commons?
Andrew Lih
01:15:17
LOL, @Jane is our metadata godmother, enriching our images while we sleep 🙂
Rachel Helps
01:15:19
(including to multiple language Wikipedias)
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:15:25
I like Glamorgan (I've gotten press passes on the basis of Glamorgan statistics :) ) https://glamtools.toolforge.org/glamorgan.html
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:15:35
Thanks, Jennie!
Albin Larsson
01:15:44
@Tore no.
Isaac Olatunde
01:15:46
This tool was designed by Magnus in 2020 for the WPWP Campaign: https://fist.toolforge.org/wd4wp/#/
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:15:47
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Los_6_meses_que_cambiaron_Chile
Tore Danielsson
01:15:54
O.K. Thanks
Andy Mabbett
01:16:00
'Glamourous' works best if you are thoughtful (preferably from the outset!) about how you categorise your uploads.
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:16:12
SLow please
Jane Darnell
01:16:37
But Andrew the weird thing is that I will use MET images as a launchpad to find something else...not all discovery ends with enriched metadata (but I do try)
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:16:50
“Images from The 6 months that changed Chile”
Isaac Olatunde
01:16:56
Lots of folks from Africa don't know how to use the Glamourous and Bamgla tool
Andrew Lih
01:17:13
@Jane I suppose that's the value of an encyclopedic museum like The Met - at the crossroads of so much in one place
Jane Darnell
01:17:28
Exactly!
Andrew Lih
01:17:53
Also, for folks who have not seen - a project from Wikimedia Israel and Switzerland (correct me if I'm wrong) - https://glamwikidashboard.org/
Albin Larsson
01:17:59
To be fair, creating detailed stats regarding file usage isn't very easy as any file being loaded in a web browser is a "download".
DerHexer/Martin
01:18:07
taking a good photo can take quite some time, too ;)
DerHexer/Martin
01:18:32
and good equipment
DerHexer/Martin
01:18:39
as with good articles and good sources
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:18:45
Mobile support/upload is very, very important for less resourced communities. +1000 Patricia.
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:18:56
we're taking notes here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2help us documenting the meeting! :)
Yann Forget
01:19:19
Yes, improving the Commons App would be great.
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:19:53
https://diff.wikimedia.org/2021/08/30/the-story-of-a-photo-the-opening-of-the-constitutional-convention/
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:20:02
Is this the one, Patricia?
Andrew Lih
01:20:07
I think the trauma of Selfie-pocalypse still lingers though, making folks afraid to turn on that mobile contribution firehose again
Michael Peel
01:20:43
Selfie-pocalypse?
DJ
01:20:48
that's why we need a holding cell for contributions, so that they can be approved .
Mauricio Genta
01:20:56
This is the one from Switzerland: https://stats.wikimedia.swiss/
Jane Darnell
01:21:05
Yes I want a holding cell for my own uploads
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:21:15
Yes! That’s the picture!
Adam Baso
01:21:16
Yeah, machine vision plus guided workflow and review queue can help, but challenging.
Mariana Fossatti - VisibleWikiWomen
01:21:27
documenting history and creating memory in real time, that's awesome! Amazing opportunities that we cannot afford to miss. Thanks Patri for sharing!
Andrew Lih
01:21:48
Some more on selfie-pocalypse - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Mobile_Contributions_Quarterly_Review_6_2013.pdf
Angie Cervellera
01:21:48
Thanks Patricia por sharing this with everyone!
Rachel Helps
01:22:33
I too was ignorant of the selfie-pocalypse so thanks for the context
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:22:44
We're taking notes here: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Andrew Lih
01:23:03
@Rachel @Mike - Yeah I only realized now that it's 10+ years old, so it has been a while
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:23:15
please remember that notes are collaborative - you can add/modify/correct what's missing :)
Isaac Olatunde
01:23:21
https://fist.toolforge.org/wd4wp/#/
Andrew Lih
01:23:40
TL;DR - If you make image contribution from mobiles super easy with one click, expect a lot of low quality selfies
Jane Darnell
01:23:45
Yes it's amazing that functionality has only been reduced for uploading in the time I have been active on Commons
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:23:48
All shared links are being added to the etherpad, for those interested: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Andrew Lih
01:24:18
Gah, sorry I'm on a train!
Andrew Lih
01:24:22
with terrible bandwidth
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:24:22
Thank you, Isaac!
Daniel Obiokeke
01:24:24
Thanks Isaac for helping editors utilize Commons on Wikipedia with the WPWP campaign. Remarkable bridge.
Michael Peel
01:24:26
@Andrew I can't see any selfies in that slide deck?
Andrew Lih
01:24:30
🙂
Michael Della Bitta, DPLA (he/him)
01:25:02
sorry to have to leave early, but i have a presentation in a few minutes. thanks for involving me, and nice to see you all!
Ryan / Rhododendrites
01:25:07
will we go through the retroboard?
Andrew Lih
01:25:11
@Mike - It's hard to find a definitive single meta page documenting selfie-pocalypse, so maybe this is a good time for that 🙂
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:25:12
Thank you, Michael!
Fiona Romeo
01:25:16
Thanks for joining Michael
DJ
01:25:26
the lesson learned was that for mobile contributions we need to think a lot about how editors can curate so much content from ppl who know little about 'us' and our values
DJ
01:25:42
mobile commons contributions
Andrew Lih
01:25:42
@DJ +1
Fiona Romeo
01:25:45
@Ryan not on this call. Please take the mike to amplify the points you would like to.
Andy Mabbett
01:25:46
Kaya, Gnangarra!
Isaac Olatunde
01:25:58
Thank you, Daniel. It's nice to have you joining the call
Andrew Lih
01:26:12
@Mike - slide 7 to 13 in that PDF are the most relevant I think
Isaac Olatunde
01:26:59
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Pages_Wanting_Photos/Evaluation_Report_2021
Fiona Romeo
01:26:59
Jennie is from The Metropolitan Museum in New York
Rachel Helps
01:28:16
I think the images from the Met are a little different from photography, but yeah, 6% is nothing to sneeze at
DJ
01:28:21
"Explore photos" button, open up group from Commons of related images (problem with related content, is our NSFW content, but thats a sepearate issue)
Yann Forget
01:28:27
A table showing admins involvment: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:List_of_administrators_by_recent_activity Currently Commons has 200 admins, but only a few are really active. 20 admins doing 90% of the work.
Jennie Choi (MET)
01:28:28
I should add of the 6% half of those are European paintings. Very little use of our other collections.
Daniel Obiokeke
01:28:48
For Jennie, can someone paste the link to tools with which she can analyze the views her (MET)uploaded images have gathered and how they have been used on Wikimedia projects? There are those tools but I can't quickly pull them out
Isaac Olatunde
01:28:50
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Pages_Wanting_Photos_2021
Andy Mabbett
01:28:58
I regret I have to leave now. It was good to see you all, but next time, perhaps we could have more "conversation" (as this was advertised as being), and fewer presentations? The EasyRetro board and chat were useful and it would be good to have more of those topics being discussed.
Rachel Helps
01:29:24
for BaGLAMa, you need to add your image category to it before you want the stats for it https://glamtools.toolforge.org/baglama2/
DJ
01:29:35
I think its very "Editor" focused. Which is funny, because we tend to spend a lot of attention on "read wikipedia" but never have we spent time on "read commons"
Jennie Choi (MET)
01:29:36
I use baglama and glamorous. But I would like to drill down by time period, object type, etic..
Rachel Helps
01:29:44
GLAMorgan uses the stats from BaGLAMa https://glamtools.toolforge.org/glamorgan.html
DJ
01:30:05
Commons needs to "export" knowledge more, instead of only ingesting.
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:30:16
+1
Jane Darnell
01:30:21
Yes I will personally browse commons for certain dishes for example (for my own cooking, not for Wikipedia)
Rachel Helps
01:30:38
I presented on the tools for tracking image views in 2018? for Wikiconference NA, but I didn't give enough attention to BaGLAMa https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgoHHKwASJ3OGWZH4Fg6B-2aVRXHVxY0h5nipt7HiWo/edit?usp=sharing
Isaac Olatunde
01:30:42
Yann is very correct. Commons lacks enough admin to manage that project
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:31:01
The etherpad for those who joined later: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
DJ
01:31:05
+1
Albin Larsson
01:31:09
+1
Francesc Fort
01:31:41
slow
Frank Schulenburg
01:31:46
Ryan: +1
Yann Forget
01:32:02
Ryann: +1
Albin Larsson
01:32:04
+1
Rachel Helps
01:32:07
oh, yeah, is Commons trying to do too much?
Andrew Lih
01:32:27
@Isaac and @Yann - Though it seems like Commons has a similar problem with Wikipedia editions like en: - folks are afraid to apply for adminship
DJ
01:32:36
basically: we are soooo far behind, its hard to pick. 🙂
Mariana Fossatti - VisibleWikiWomen
01:32:49
I have to leave now. It has been a great call. Thank you all, que tengan un buen día, tarde o noche!
Rachel Helps
01:32:51
the admin review process is so incredibly intense
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:33:04
Chau Mariana!
Andrew Lih
01:33:07
FYI, a real tangible outcome of this meeting - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Selfie-pocalypse
Rachel Helps
01:33:08
is it the same way on Commons?
Yann Forget
01:33:10
Andrew: agreed.
Andrew Lih
01:33:11
🙂
James
01:33:16
Sandra said: "I would like Commons to be a destination in itself" -- IMO we push people (and search engines) away from browsing through Commons, when almost all wikilinks (eg wikilinked creators, wikilinked places, wikilinked subjects) point away from Commons, rather than eg to Commons categories. Is this something we should re-visit ?
Fiona Romeo
01:33:21
Thanks for joining Mariana
Albin Larsson
01:33:35
Make Commons great for developers and many use-cases will be taken care of(look at Wikidata).
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:33:38
slow please
Andrew Lih
01:33:47
@Mike - While I mostly agree, there are some that DO view Commons as its own standalone community
Fiona Romeo
01:34:05
Can you say more about that @Albin?
Jane Darnell
01:34:12
Yes I see Commons as an end goal for many seearches
Andrew Lih
01:34:37
@Jane - Definitely, probably even more so with SDC
Jane Darnell
01:34:50
Yes it helps, I use the commons infobox all the time
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:35:18
I’m very happy that we can discuss this matter, together. I would love to know if WMF will continue facilitating these meetings and leading some efforts for us to build/strength a Commons community, to move forward with these discussions and ideas
Jane Darnell
01:35:20
@Andrew yes SDoC will improve search (I hope)
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:35:28
slow please
Andrew Lih
01:35:54
As @Albin astutely pointed out recently - WikiCommons Query Search on its own may be the primary and only thing anyone uses to get to our free content. So treating "query" as a primary case and not a secondary support case is important.
Rachel Helps
01:36:09
+1
Yann Forget
01:36:14
Practical example of what Ryan said: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rillke/bigChunkedUpload.js#Discussion
DJ
01:37:01
yeah little vision
Jane Darnell
01:37:06
Yes I agree with that (what Albin wants) and what query could give us but doesn't (yet)
Andrew Lih
01:37:12
+1 Albin on "you don't know technical direction" and you're "not sure if something will work"
Andrew Lih
01:37:21
FYI, Albin was the hero who fixed Pattypan!!!
Jane Darnell
01:37:24
Exactly
Rachel Helps
01:37:32
yay Albin for fixing Pattypan!!
Fiona Romeo
01:37:33
Albin rescued Pattypan, by the way
Fiona Romeo
01:37:37
snap!
Tore Danielsson
01:37:44
Thanks for Pattypan, Albin!
Albin Larsson
01:37:45
:-)
Michel Bakni [AR]
01:37:48
slow please
DJ
01:37:50
slow daniel 🙂
GerardM
01:38:01
Could we PLEASE enable search for Commons limited only to specific languages.. It will enable search for eight year olds to find pictures to be used in their language
Carol Dunn
01:38:15
Software is never finished
James
01:38:25
Infoboxes drawing on wikidata IMO have been a huge positive step (and for multi-lingualising Commons). BUT too many categories cannot have wikidata-driven infoboxes, as they don't have WD items (and WD community refuse to give ground on this). One possible help would be extending SDC to Commons categories, so then those categories could have a wikidata-like description stored on Commons (for the infoboxes to draw on).
GerardM
01:38:26
limited means only labels that are specific to that languages
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:38:32
> "I would like Commons to be a destination in itself"I used to joke that Wikipedia really is the search engine for Commons. (which perhaps says more about the actual commons search engine ;) )
Rachel Helps
01:38:48
hahaha
James
01:38:51
Jean-Fred : that is very true
Andrew Lih
01:39:07
@JeanFred Blasphemy! 🙂 But you're right that Commons search has traditionally been fairly useless
Isaac Olatunde
01:39:09
+1 Ryan
James
01:39:16
& also (I think) it is only images that appear on Wikipedia that search engines ever find
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:39:50
Yeah, that line was supposed to be a light stab at Wikipedia ; but it has a built-in self-deprecating aspect :p
Rachel Helps
01:39:52
@James, I'm really curious about that now
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:39:54
Everyone can listen in the English channel
Sandra Fauconnier
01:39:54
Commons can become a destination in itself if we invest in SDC-focused refined search (not just for Depicts), in SDC and Wikidata driven galleries, and e.g. generous interfaces. We could do fantastic things there
Michael Peel
01:40:03
@James I'm not sure there's been a critical mass of people asking for more Wikidata items for Commons categories to be created, it's only been a few voices so far and it's hard to change the consensus on that. I think that's better than trying to manage category metastructure directly in Commons, since Wikidata's much better than Commons at data!
Andrew Lih
01:40:49
@JeanFred - I'm finding using a Frankenstein's monster search of haswbstatement, deep cat, and keywords is getting pretty good results. But as a user experience? Terrible 🙂
James
01:41:07
Sandra: If we're realistic, I think we know that that is years away
Daniel Kinzler
01:41:35
I love the interpreteter feature!
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:41:43
I see we do have many approaches to this discussion, and its great! personally I’m more interested in the community-scope-content discussion than the technical/tools discussion, and I’ll be very happy to share with others that are in the same page 🙂
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:41:55
+1 to Sandra (especially/although it does not have to be part of Commons itself): smth like Crotos (a very visual thing which admittedly draws more on Wikidata than on Commons) shows what it could look like http://zone47.com/crotos/
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:41:57
I had a question!
Sandra Fauconnier
01:42:03
James: I totally agree, but I think we really need a long term vision besides looking at the immediate problems only
Andrew Lih
01:42:12
@Sandra Yes, there should be a lot more "Crotos" like tools on top of Commons to experience it in full glory
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:42:13
I lost the translation on the last intervention in Arabic, please help us documenting it! https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Andrew Lih
01:42:38
OMG Jinx @JeanFred
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:42:49
:D
James
01:42:52
@Sandra years away from getting the community, the data quality, or the software
Yann Forget
01:43:29
Patricia: yes, tools can help, but ultimately people matter.
Patricia | Wikimedia CL
01:43:52
Oui, c’est clair pour moi Yann
James
01:44:07
@Shari : misplaced priorities -- first priority should be to id tech debt to make sure *existing* capabilities stay up -- some are now *very* fragile
Fiona Romeo
01:45:08
@sannita I wrote a brief summary and will develop it further after the meeting.
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:45:18
Fiona <3
Shari Wakiyama
01:45:26
@james yes, frictionless experience means the tech needs to be stable
James
01:46:37
recommend eg this list from @DJ : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TheDJ#Commons_dev_wishlist
GerardM
01:46:43
The software to bring Commons to the kids of the world we already HAD
GerardM
01:47:26
and could have again
James
01:47:27
Amir's email last year should be ringing warning bells: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/WMPZHMXSLQJ6GONAVTFLDFFMPNJDVORS/
Andrew Lih
01:47:52
@James - Yes, rumor has it Thumbor may be on the list of things to be fixed
Lisa McCabe
01:48:05
To book in to chat to Jeff: https://commons.youcanbook.me/
Albin Larsson
01:48:06
@James +1 the focus should be to go back to basics with things like tech debt, and stability
Fiona Romeo
01:48:07
@james We've got that page in our list of lists but thanks for surfacing it again.
Shari Wakiyama
01:48:07
Thank you @james! I've been reviewing and capturing all the inputs from the lists
DJ
01:48:28
haven't we done that research before ??? like 7 years back ?
Fiona Romeo
01:48:32
https://commons.youcanbook.me/
Jeff
01:48:36
30 minute interviews for the research
Sandra Fauconnier
01:48:45
I had a chat with Jeff and really enjoyed it. He asked great questions and actually helped me think about Commons better myself
James
01:48:48
I also particularly regret the collapse of support for large images -- no support now for image zoom pan and scan, after volunteer userspace IIP-image hack went away
Sandra Fauconnier
01:48:50
Recommend it!
DJ
01:48:57
actually probably was 10 years ago 😄
James
01:49:19
… which D Schwen supported single-handed for years
Andrew Lih
01:49:23
And in the background lurking for a number of years - what of trying to play nice with standards like IIIF
Fiona Romeo
01:49:25
Here again is the link to book an interview with Jeff: https://commons.youcanbook.me/ He is really keen to hear from admins/VRTs too because we don't hear as much about their needs.
Jeff
01:49:30
Thanks Margeigh! Thanks Sandra!
Jane Darnell
01:49:43
Yes I found that link somewhat off-putting. I dunno a half hour in back-to-back meetups just seems so random
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:50:37
That picture <3
Shari Wakiyama
01:50:46
Jeff will be bridging the new research with existing research
Michael Peel
01:50:47
missing attribution! ;-)
Michael Peel
01:50:57
(hopefully it's at the end)
Andrew Lih
01:50:57
That was the winner of a contest recently yes?
Andrew Lih
01:51:06
The books photo that is
Michael Peel
01:51:10
Wiki Loves Monuments
Andrew Lih
01:51:15
^^^
Jane Darnell
01:51:15
Yes I think so
Michael Peel
01:51:23
library in Rio de Janeiro
James
01:51:28
... should have been taken in-house & integrated *years* ago, --- we really need ability to serve image tiles, image crops, etc (ideally with an interface that supports IIIF access) So much downstream software now presumes this kind of access.
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:51:30
@Andrew: yes! And it was Brazilian :p
Jane Darnell
01:51:31
Very cool
Andrew Lih
01:51:56
@James Definitely. We have gotten numerous pings from IIIF folks but we haven't had much dedication on our side.
James
01:52:15
Also the underpinnings for video are reportedly in an awful state
Michael Peel
01:52:26
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Real_Gabinete_Portugu%C3%AAs_de_Leitura_10.jpg
Andrew Lih
01:52:29
@James You are correct re: video
Andrew Lih
01:53:08
For video, it's another case of how in 2022, our tools have somehow become less capable than 10 years ago
Isaac Olatunde
01:53:22
Thanks to everyone for their contribution. I'd need to join another meeting now. Good to see you, Andrew!
Jane Darnell
01:53:27
Indeed, I haven't uploaded a film in years
Fiona Romeo
01:53:33
Thank you Isaac
Andrew Lih
01:53:39
Good seeing you Isaac!
James
01:53:46
These are fundamental & need to be shored up before "it would be nice" features (& across the board, to assure ourselves of stability of the key mission-critical software)
DJ
01:53:49
@Andrew I guess you haven't seen my 360 degree video support yet ;)
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:54:08
Link here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Sound_Logo
Andrew Lih
01:54:09
@DJ - ME WANT
DJ
01:54:25
https://twitter.com/dj_hartman/status/1519406694421479426
Andrew Lih
01:54:51
@DJ - I was afraid the post would be from April 1. Exciting!
Andrew Lih
01:55:04
I have terabytes of 360 video
DJ
01:55:14
yes thank you interpreters !
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:55:20
Please sign up if you would like to remain in the loop with the sound logo: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Sound_Logo
Jane Darnell
01:55:22
I totally believe it, Andrew!
Andrew Lih
01:55:28
LOL
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:55:56
... if your lens could talk
Andrew Lih
01:56:25
I may even have some 360 video from Esino Lario
Jane Darnell
01:56:33
My dreams and aspirations for Wiki Commons are the same they were before Wikidata, and I always thought Wikidata would fix Commons
James
01:56:54
18 months ago was promised that the API team would create a IIIF endpoint, and WM-SE would interface with GLAMs on the user side -- but both lead people left & nothing was ever heard of it again. This has become such a key platforms for GLAM and academic content sharing. mixing, and applications
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:57:07
@James The ZoomViewer still kind of works ? https://zoomviewer.toolforge.org/index.php?f=Dish%20of%20blueberries.jpg&flash=no
Jane Darnell
01:57:15
I also have lots of pics from Esino Lario that never got uploaded
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:57:21
Speaking of tomorrow Gangarra 🙂
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:57:28
(I mean, it did not take well the demise of Flash I suppose)
Yann Forget
01:57:44
My latest uploads: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:The_Collected_Works_of_Mahatma_Gandhi in 3 languages, total around 600 PDF and DjVu files
Carol Dunn
01:57:50
Thank you all so much!
James
01:58:00
@Jean-Fred : okay, today it is up. But it so often isn't -- completely can't be relied on
Jane Darnell
01:58:01
Thanks all!
Virginia Poundstone
01:58:04
Thank you all!
Mehrdad (he/him)
01:58:27
I just discovered this process for pictures of the day: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_picture_candidates?useskin=vector-2022#Featured_picture_candidates
Jean-Frederic Berthelot
01:58:27
@james oh ok, I never noticed, but I’ll take your word for it :)
Giovanna Fontenelle (WMF)
01:58:29
Thank you everyone!
Yann Forget
01:58:31
Thank you all
Jane Darnell
01:58:32
I just created an item for this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Self-Portrait.jpg
Adam Baso
01:58:36
Be well, thanks all
Luca Martinelli [Sannita]
01:58:37
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/commons-app-2
Angie Cervellera
01:58:39
Thanks!
Albin Larsson
01:58:43
Thanks!
Tore Danielsson
01:58:45
Thank you!
Daniel Obiokeke
01:58:46
Can I have a link the chirping bird slide we had during the retro?
Fiona Romeo
01:58:47
I uploaded this image from the BBC images of AI project: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banana_Plant_Flask_by_Max_Gruber.jpg
Fiona Romeo
01:59:17
Yes, give me a moment Daniel
Fiona Romeo
01:59:41
Here it is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Natal_National_Park_dawn_chorus_(W1CDR0001146_BD3).ogg
James
01:59:43
@Jean-Fred & only supplies a string & duct-tape IIIF endpoint, not one that can be shared or relied on